Plot Recon: Where Thrillers Get Tactical
Go beyond the blurbs and dive into the battlefield of thriller writing. Hosted by Evan Graver—author of the Ryan Weller, John Phoenix, and Stuntman series—Plot Recon is the podcast where thrillers get tactical. Each episode features raw, unscripted conversations with top authors, exploring the craft, strategy, and chaos behind action-driven storytelling. From tradecraft to character arcs, publishing tactics to real-world ops, this is not your average writing podcast. It’s mission briefings for storytellers who write like warriors.
New episodes every week. No fluff. No filters. Just full-contact fiction.
Plot Recon: Where Thrillers Get Tactical
Scuba, Sailboats, and Shootouts: Evan Graver thrillers
Ever wondered what makes thriller authors tick? In this inaugural episode of Plot Recon, host Evan Graver flips the script and becomes the interviewee, sharing the creative process behind his 24 published thriller novels across three series.
As a Navy veteran and paraplegic who crafts high-octane adventure stories, Evan reveals how personal experience transforms into compelling fiction. From scuba diving mishaps that became pivotal plot points to characters who navigate disabilities based on his own journey, authenticity fuels his storytelling approach. "I wanted a platform for authors to share more than what readers find in the book," Evan explains, highlighting the podcast's mission to connect readers with the minds behind their favorite thrillers.
The conversation with Air Force veteran and podcaster Scott McLean dives deep into the self-publishing journey that began in 2017 with "Dark Water." Evan shares candid insights about writing character-driven action, balancing technical accuracy with entertainment value, and persevering through critical feedback. His approach to creating protagonists who "bleed on the page" rather than "cardboard cutout James Bonds" demonstrates why emotional connection matters even in action-packed narratives.
For writers and readers alike, this episode offers a rare glimpse into how a successful thriller author builds believable worlds, crafts compelling characters, and maintains creative momentum through multiple series. Whether you're curious about the writing process, self-publishing realities, or simply want to understand what makes a great thriller tick, this conversation delivers honest, practical wisdom from someone who's mastered the craft.
Subscribe to Plot Recon for more conversations with thriller authors who bring tactical authenticity to their fiction, and discover the stories behind the stories you love.
Hi, I'm your host, evan Graver, and welcome to the very first episode of Plot Recon where thrillers get tactical. When I first started thinking about doing a podcast, the immediate idea that sprang to mind was to talk to my fellow authors, not just about why we started writing and what our background is, but I wanted to know how they incorporate their background into their writing, what makes their writing tick, what makes their story special, what makes these authors do what they do. In that vein, I wanted the very first episode of Plot Recon to be about me, not because I'm vain, but so you guys know I'm the real deal. I'm a self-published author with 24 titles under my belt, across three series and a standalone. All of them are thrillers, because that's my jam.
Evan Graver:Today, I have with me my fellow podcaster, scott McClain. Scott is an Air Force veteran, a retired customs agent and the host of the Veterans Vets Connection podcast, and he's the founder of the One man, one Mic Foundation, which teaches veterans all about podcasting. Scott has been my mentor into this journey of podcasting and I have to say he's been pretty exceptional at it. So today, scott's going to put the screws to me, just like I'm putting them to my fellow authors. So, without further ado, here's Scott Fire away bud.
Scott McLean:What's up, my friend?
Evan Graver:Well, I'm living the dream in South Florida.
Scott McLean:There you go. Thanks for having me on. I'm honored to be doing your inaugural episode and I am not a beat-around-the-bush guy when I do my podcast. Get right into it. So let's get right into it. I have 20 questions for you.
Evan Graver:Sounds good.
Scott McLean:And it has to do with why you started the podcast. I want to know why you started this podcast first of all.
Evan Graver:I kind of said it in my intro. I wanted to talk to other authors about writing. It's just a way for us to share what we do with the readers, because writing is pretty solitary. I could sit in front of my computer all day and the only feedback we really get are from beta readers who read the early release of the book, or from reviews, which can be really brutal. So I just wanted to kind of have another platform for authors to talk about their work, how they got into writing, what their writing is about just to those kind of general things and get a little in-depth, about more than just what we read in the book.
Scott McLean:That's pretty good from a reader's perspective, to see what the author is thinking. That's pretty interesting. So why thrillers? What is it about that genre that made you say, yeah, that's what I'm writing, this is what I'm going to do?
Evan Graver:Because that's what I'm writing. This is what I'm going to do Because that's what I've always read and that's the kind of movies I like to watch. And if I ever sat down to write a short story, you know, when I was younger, it would inevitably be something thriller-ish.
Scott McLean:All right, where did your idea come from your first book, like, what was the thought process and how much of it is pulled from real life? Now, I am not in that author's world. I am the furthest thing from it. Ask might sound kind of very simple, but I don't know. Your world is a whole. It's another planet to me, so I'd be very curious to know these things like what was it?
Evan Graver:uh well, dark water started, um, as a kind of a series of short stories, and there's a lot of things that happened to me in real life and in those books. Um, and honestly, the thought process behind dark water was I, I just want to write something that I'm going to enjoy writing. So it's about scuba diving and sailing, um boating in general, and then it has the thriller elements of dealing with mexican cartel and um, in that book, the cartel is trying to take back to southwest us and which is a big hot topic right now, and it kind of transcends you know, it's kind of a long-running theme in the US. So I thought why not write it into a book?
Scott McLean:How much of it came from real life, just the, the diving and the doing, all the stuff that you do. You have knowledge of that, so you thought you'd incorporate that. Is that a one of your thought processes?
Evan Graver:Absolutely, because well, there's a story in the book about the main character's name is Ryan Weller and Ryan is diving and he tells Emily a story about he's learning how to sidemount dive, which is carrying a tank on each side of your body, and so he's telling her a story about, um, the one of the first times he went down and he, when you side mount, you switch regulators so he can breathe through from each tank. You breathe each tank down 500 pounds, swap regulators, um, so he, he swapped regulators and when he breathed in there was no air because he forgot to turn the tank on, and that I mean that I did that. So, okay, when you're down like 20, 30 feet, you go, oh, there's no air. So it's, yeah, I mean, kind of a good story to tell there you go.
Scott McLean:Why not incorporate it into your book, right? It's in there so all right, you're a navy vet and a paraplegic, in case the listeners might not know. How did those experiences shape and build the characters under pressure? How did you incorporate that, I should say, into your characters and the?
Evan Graver:books. So some of the characters are one of the auxiliary characters. Greg is in a wheelchair, another one, mango. He's missing a limb, a leg. Ryan is EOD. I always thought EOD was pretty cool.
Evan Graver:When I was in the boot camp we saw a flyer on the ship's bulletin board and I was pretty fascinated by it. But I didn't have the A, I didn't have the hearing. I barely got in the Navy. I had to have a waiver to get in because I have tinnitus and then so the hearing I wouldn't pass the hearing test. So it was kind of out. But they put me right in the file that says not to be in a noise hazardous rating and they put me on a flight deck which is probably one of the loudest places on earth. So I just took kind of what I knew about my experience in the Navy, what I talked to other people about my experience in the navy, what I talked to other people about, um, like I went out and talked to a lot of eod guys, uh, just to get some of their experiences, and so I try to put the stuff in the book, but I mean it doesn't always come across because some of that's just it's.
Evan Graver:Some of it's really boring. Some of it's really exciting and then you go back to the boring stuff and you were in the military. You know exactly what I mean. It's like that hurry up and wait. So with a thriller you've got to really keep the pressure on. You've got to really. You know the old adage is you take the character and you put them in a bad situation. Then you try to figure out how to make it worse. And you know, real life is sometimes like that, but mostly it's just. You know, I had one guy comment that he spent 20 some years in the special forces and he never saw as much action as Ryan does in the books.
Scott McLean:So it's a book right.
Evan Graver:That is a book, I mean it's fiction.
Scott McLean:So it's fiction, so that gives you a little artistic freedom. But so there's that right you, being in the military, are you conscious of? Well, I can't take too much artistic freedom because I really know and I will get shredded for this. You know, in the back of your mind, as a writer, you're putting it out to the people you bear your soul pretty much, and at that point, like, do you say, yeah, have you ever gone to the point of like, no, I can't do that, I can't write that?
Evan Graver:or do you let that?
Evan Graver:affect you at all I kind of look at it like I want to keep the book as real as possible. Okay, so, if you know especially the military stuff because when veterans read a book they can just shred another vet if they don't know what they're talking about and um, you know, you can always take some sort of creative license, but you have to keep it within that strict realm of um, military hierarchy and and what, what really happens in the. Yeah, so outside, in the outside, in the civilian world where Ryan kind of lives, I can do pretty much whatever I want. But you know, you, you kind of I like to keep things fairly real the, the combat scenes, the you know that kind of stuff is. I try to keep it as real as possible because once you go, I think there's a fine line between um, keeping it real and and bordering on sci-fi.
Scott McLean:Yeah, so at what point so you, you, you write your first book and did it sit on the shelf, and you write a second one and a third one. At what point did you start publishing?
Evan Graver:uh, so I wrote my first book in 2016, right as the election was coming on from for hillary and trump and it is a about malicious taking over the government, and I just basically wrote it for me and I didn't really think that it anybody would really want to read it and, um, so I just kind of put it on the shelf, said, yeah, that's my learning experience and let's, let's move on to something else. And I wrote dark water and I just I had enough fun doing it, I enjoyed, enjoyed doing it and it kept me occupied, so I was like let's just keep on writing. And then, you know, 20-some books later, we're here.
Scott McLean:Again when did you start publishing? Like did you say after the third book, and what was that process? Now, what was the you know, okay, I want to publish Darkwater, we'll just leave it, we'll start with. Okay, I want to publish Darkwater, we'll just leave it, we'll start with that. I want to publish. What was the process? What was the like? Oh shit, did I get into something a little deep?
Evan Graver:Well, so I did a lot of reading. I still do a lot of reading, lot of reading. I still do a lot of reading, and a lot of it was. And, um, kindle Direct, which is, you know, their subscription service, and I saw a lot of authors were doing kind of writing in the same genre, in the same vein and I thought I can do that too right. So I just I went to self-publishing route because I didn't want to spend years waiting, trying to get an agent, sending out letters and getting rejections and all this stuff. I was like, you know, we don't kind of don't need those gatekeepers anymore. Those gatekeepers are for, you know, the big five publishing world.
Evan Graver:Um, self-publishing has really come on in the last 10 years and even before that. So in 2017, after I got done writing the book, I was just like all right, let's get it edited, proofread, get it out and get a cover made and just put it out and see what happens. It out and see what happens. And the big thing in the in self publishing world is you got to write a series because it keeps people engaged. You know they read through the series pretty quickly and I saw I just kept writing and and I thought, okay, I'm going to write a three-book series and then I'll move on to something else. And that turned into 15 books in the series and they're all named Dark something. And that came about because I wrote Dark Water and that's the name of the boat in the book, right? So the next one is called Dark Ship and then Dark Horse, and I was like, well, let's just keep the theme going All right Makes sense.
Scott McLean:How it ended up Makes sense Like we talked about with podcasting. You don't do just one episode. Yeah, you want to set it up and engage the audience.
Evan Graver:Exactly.
Scott McLean:So I used to date this girl back in the day I was in high school and her father was a corporate lawyer and he was also writing a book. Now this just kind of dawned on me, I just remembered this. And he had his office. They had a very nice house, you know corporate lawyer house, so it was a very nice house. I always had that luck, right, I always get the girls with money, anyway.
Scott McLean:Um, and one day she took me in that office wasn't a big office and she says this is where he's writing his book and, uh, there, like he had this board I'll never forget and there were notes, like just notes, and the way it was set up was like a puzzle, almost right, that only he could figure out. And I didn't know anything about that until later on when, I don't know like years later, I stumbled into something about writing books. Not that I was interested, and it was how some authors do their, their plotting. They plot characters, they plot storylines, they plot results, right, or whatever it's going to be. Uh, side characters, sub characters, whatever you want to call them. Do you plot or do you just kind of sit down and just let it go like and just see where it takes you and I have a follow-up to that, by the way okay so.
Evan Graver:So I am a pantser, which means that I write by the seat of my pants okay but I'm kind of a hybrid in the fact that I will take notes and have bulletin points and I'll try to figure out the end of the story first, because if I have, if I know the end, all the rest will fall into place. So if I have those notes and I don't always follow the notes strictly I mean this and this is the thing we were thinking about, panthers is that the characters will talk to us and say this is what I want to do. I'm not listening to you. So it's kind of like you have multiple characters in your head, multiple voices telling you what to do. Um, I, for example, I kept trying to get, uh, ryan waller to come into the Fort Lauderdale area and kind of settle down a little bit, and he's not. He said no, I'm just happy on my sailboat, so I might stop by, but I'm not going to stick around. So, and that's I mean he comes in and out, so that's.
Scott McLean:So my follow-up to that is have you ever had a storyline where you liked it, you liked it, you liked it, you're like and you're trying to force it because you like it, but it's not coming across right and you try to again force it and you keep getting deeper in? Now I could be way off. I don't know no, and then you're like you know what this just ain't gonna fucking work? You're absolutely right there. Know what this just ain't going to fucking work?
Evan Graver:You're absolutely right. There's days when I'll write, and write, and write, and then I'll look back at it and go this sucks and I'll erase 10,000 words and start over again.
Scott McLean:That's got to be like, oh Lord. I mean it's kind of heart-wrenching.
Evan Graver:I'll put it over here on the side. Go well, maybe I can use some of that. But the book that's coming out on july 7th shadow phoenix I wrote to opening that book three times and I didn't use. I used part of it but I hardly used any of it. And I just got to the. I kept writing it and going I gotta make this work, this work, I got to make this work. I don't know how it's going to work, but it's got to work. And then it just got to the point where it's like, oh, this is just, it's too far out there even for me, so I can't. I got to scrap it and start over again.
Scott McLean:Ah okay, how do you keep action scenes grounded in reality, knowing and this kind of touches on a question I asked earlier that there's people that live that life and not just the military life either? These books aren't specific to our people, as I say, veterans, right?
Evan Graver:It goes out to everybody.
Scott McLean:So there's people that don't know and they're like okay, this, this is what it is and it sounds good to me. But there is these other people, these that you know, because you don't know who's reading your book. Are you conscious of them? And, and again, I think I asked this but, um, when you're writing it, writing the action scenes, how do you try to keep it as grounded as you can, because it's fiction, so you want to blow up a little bit.
Evan Graver:Yeah.
Scott McLean:Like things.
Evan Graver:Yeah, I mean I'll start with diving, because I know diving and there's strict rules to diving and you have to adhere to them and there's best practices, um, and so I work in a dive shop part time. So I I hear over and over again um the instructors teaching open water and the basic best practices, and I'll read other books and see I'm like what that's? That's not how you're supposed to do it and I, I think I just try to say to say, okay, what is the best practice here? Um, like sailing, sailors are another. They'll, they'll play you if you get something wrong. Um, you call it a jibba how you're in and how you're the main sailor. Um, that so and that sailing I just kind of ryan does a lot of sailing in the book, so I just try to generalize it. Um, I don't get too specific, other than say he sailed from here to there. Okay, um, action scenes where we're shooting bullets, and I just try to think about what I would do in that situation, or you know I don't know.
Evan Graver:You just write it and go, okay, is it, is it. And now you can just stick it into chat gpt and go, hey, it's just real well, do I need to fix this? And it'll, and ai will go.
Scott McLean:They'll always give you some sort of critique and that's a rabbit hole we could go down, but this podcast two hours long if we talked about that, uh, the, the relationship now, and I have other questions. But the relationship now and I'm sure any authors that are listening, uh, they have an opinion yeah on. Let's again the, the relationship between writing writers and now ai. I'm sure there is a. It is. There is no middle ground there. I think people either like it's a tool or it's cheating.
Scott McLean:I think if there is a small percentage of people that are in the middle that say, well, I see this point and I see that point, so I don't Well give me.
Evan Graver:I use it as a tool because I write Because.
Evan Graver:Right, ok, so. So when I was writing Shadow Phoenix I was I tried to force a chat. Gpt is the one I know and the one I use, so I'll tell you about that one. So I would put a chapter in and chat GPT would go oh let's, let's spruce this up for you, and it would immediately strip out all the exposition and make the whole thing dialogue-driven. So you lose a lot. I can't make it copy my voice. They say, oh, you can make it copy anybody's style, but it won't copy mine and that's fine, I'll end up.
Evan Graver:That's a rabbit hole. You go down there and you try to force it to write something and it just doesn't do it and you go after a half an hour you go, screw it, I'll just write to see myself. And then, um, so the whole book. So the answer to your question I, the whole book, every book I write, is not AI written, right? You know, I use it to edit, to edit. I was gonna say, yeah, yeah, I use it to critique, I use to edit, I use it to fix grammar, and there's a lot of tools out there that you know. Grammarly is a huge one that everybody knows. Yeah, and that's pretty much ai driven, so if you're using it grammarly to write fix anything on, you know you're using ai, so okay so you mentioned this character a couple times already.
Scott McLean:So you have three characters. You have Ryan Weller, john Phoenix and the Stuntman. Now, how are they different and what part of you shows up in each one?
Evan Graver:So, ryan Weller, is that called like a?
Scott McLean:self-insert. I'm sorry to interrupt you no go ahead is that? Is that called a self-insert, when a writer kind of puts a piece of their personality? I know it's, it could be common, I, I don't know um there's a piece of me in every character, right I?
Evan Graver:um okay, so so ryan weller is former Navy EOD and he lives on a sailboat and sails around the Caribbean. John Phoenix comes from Special Forces and he was a CIA clandestine officer. He gets burned by the CIA and goes into private practice private practice and the stuntman came about because I wanted to write something completely different than military and cia and I wanted a character that could still do a lot of stuff. And I and I was like, oh, let's be a stuntman, because they're kind of a jack of all trades and I wanted to be one when I was a kid. Um, so kid.
Evan Graver:So there's a piece of me in every character because I mean, I honestly, the one that's probably closest to me is stuntman because I wrote the other two series are in third person, so Ryan or John did this, but stuntman is in first person, so it's always I did this, I did that and it's all. And stuntman is completely from his perspective. There's no um, you know, there's no hop to somebody else, to to the bad guy's character, so you know what the bad guy's doing. It's all from luke weston's perspective, so that the reader takes the ride with Luke, so the reader might figure it out, but Luke's still trying to muddle through it. So I think that he's probably the closest to me because he's I loved to ride motorcycles before I got hurt. That's how I got hurt and I just wanted to write motorcycles and stunts and just fun stuff for me.
Scott McLean:All right. How do you keep these characters from going stale, these long-running characters?
Evan Graver:I kind of ended Weller at 15 because he was becoming kind of stale to me. Um, I, throughout the series he was trying to work out a relationship with a woman and it would. It was on and off again and then finally, in the, the last couple of books, they got married and, um, then in the, the last book, they're sailing, they, they. They're going on a uh around the world tour on their sailboat and he finds a pregnancy test in the in the bathroom and and that's just where I left it I was like he's sailing away, he's happy, he's got, he's got a kid on the way, something he always wanted. So, um, to me, I, I mean I could bring him. If people ask me if I'm gonna bring him back, and I'm probably not, because I just left him in a happy place.
Scott McLean:He's done with that life and he's moved on did you ever think of leaving him in a not happy place? Now, I know you get you, get, you, get attached to these characters and and I heard you kind of touch on something earlier. Like sometimes it seems these characters call their own shots Like I'm not going to do a lot of it, right.
Scott McLean:So they have a persona of their own and you're attached to them. But have you ever thought like well, you know what Biggest plot twist I could bring? Is you know, the boat blows up. That's the end. Like you leave the reader hanging. Is that you know? Do you ever think of that?
Evan Graver:honestly I did and I had reader feedback. They're all like don't, please, don't kill emily off, because the standard trope is for your main character to finally get with the woman he loves and and then she dies, and it's like Brad Thor and James Bond, I mean, it's so and.
Evan Graver:I wanted to avoid that with Ryan. Phoenix has so many women problems that it's hard to keep him straight. So I mean he's I like writing him because he's different than Weller. Weller's got more of a conscience, like a moral. Should I really shoot this guy? And Phoenix is like I really don't like you, bam, and you know he has no. Whatever the objective is, he's going to get through it, whether you know bad guy dies or you know he breaks a heart along the way.
Evan Graver:So to me, I guess a lot of the action is always there. I can write an action thriller all day long, but to actually get the character broke down into some sort of emotional understanding of himself or figuring it out, um, I think is is draws the reader in, because the reader wants to see characters with emotions. They don't want to see a cardboard cut out james bond kind of figure. They want to see a guy with that, you know, bleeds on the page. You know that that's got. You know he's worried about the mortgage and his wife and kids and his, you know, um, whatever, whatever else we're going to worry about every day. And and I think people relate to that more than they can relate to, um, you know just some guy that grows around blowing people up or shooting people. You know it's so.
Scott McLean:I mean every sniper movie you watch, they have, you know, some sort of emotional way for you to attach to the character that's the art of storytelling, my friend exactly connection yep right has there ever been a, has there ever been a scene in your book or chapter or segment, uh, or storyline that was hard for you to write?
Evan Graver:emotionally it's um so I like to dig into this a little bit, because writing is kind of cathartic for me. So, um, I gave Ryan some PTSD and um, so throughout the books he learns to deal with that. Um, I think we all kind of suffer some sort of emotional PTSD, whether that's um, you know, from a car accident or from military service or whatever. But so there's always, you know, you know learning how to forgive yourself, learning how to, you know, interact with other people. One of the characters in the Ryan Weller series is Greg Olson, who owns the company that Ryan works for and he's in a wheelchair. So I get to put Greg through all kinds of torture, you know. Just I make him go through some of the same stuff that I went through. There you go, and while he kind of deals with it alcohol, I never really got into that, but what's the?
Scott McLean:emotional part of it. So I got that. But what is? How was that emotionally for you? Did you have to relive some experiences to write this down? Did you ever look back and say like what the fuck? But you got to put it out there to help him, or no, maybe not. Well, you relive some of it, um, but most of the stuff in a wheelchair, um.
Evan Graver:So he and ryan were in the same eod unit in afghanistan and he was hit by an ied, okay, um, and the shrapnel severed his spinal cord. And I wrote a prequel to the story and it talks all about that and I'm sure that somebody will go. Oh, that looks just like a familiar EOD movie that we watched not too long ago.
Scott McLean:So I kind of stayed away from.
Evan Graver:I stayed away from Afghanistan and the the EOD thing, just cause I don't always know how to make a bomb or how to depict it, but but I put those guys there because I wanted to show the backstory and, um, you know, ryan ends up. You know they get separated because they both are injured. They send Greg to Texas and and Ryan ends up going to visit him and spending some time with him and you know, in the book Greg refuses to eat and that's kind of how I dealt with becoming a paraplegic too. So just putting them in, you know you're thinking, you're always thinking about. You know what's the toughest situation I can be in how am I going to wheel and shoot a gun, or how am I going to carry something on my lap and, you know, make it down these stairs or drive a boat from a wheelchair.
Scott McLean:So there's always something that the things that people don't think about.
Evan Graver:Yeah, you're right.
Scott McLean:Yep people don't think about. Yeah, you're right. Yep, I know we touched on this earlier, but, um, that feedback, the criticism from people think they know better or they know and you don't, um, and it's just like anything people can suck. How do you deal with that?
Evan Graver:you read it and go okay, okay, everybody has an opinion.
Scott McLean:Have you ever looked at something that said maybe he's right or she's right?
Evan Graver:Absolutely. There you go you don't fight it. I mean I had one lady was upset because I mean, ryan's a smoker and I talk about this through most of the books, it's an addiction that he fights and she was upset that. You know she's like every chapter he's lighting a cigarette and I'm like, okay, so I'll dial some of it back, so but you let her affect your character Interesting.
Evan Graver:I mean, I think it's because readers, don't you know, I mean the whole society as a whole is like frowning upon smoking, when, when, when. In the military, it's like one, it's like one of those things that people start doing just so they can take a break. You know, smoking it's like I'm going to the smoke pit for 15 minutes and you disappear every hour for 15 minutes and you only have to work 45 minutes out of the hour yeah so but uh, and that's how the military life goes.
Evan Graver:You start smoking and you know you're up long hours, you got you need a nicotine fix and but that's you know. Reviews are kind of cool and the fact that you get the feedback and people saying, oh, I love the books, I love the characters, I can't wait to read more. And then you get the one and people saying, oh, I love the books, I love the characters, I can't wait to read more. And then you get the one-star reviews that say this absolutely sucks, there's better stuff out there. And you just say, okay, cool and. And you keep writing and just try to keep improving your craft. And I think everybody, no matter what they say, it's, it's they're always like, no matter what they say, they're always like ignore the reviews, but you can't ignore them.
Evan Graver:It's human nature to absorb that criticism, but it's you have to figure out what you need to change how to not take it personally which is hard because you put your heart and soul into this thing you can't take it personally because it's one person's opinion of your book or your podcast or whatever you're doing Like if someone said oh, your son is stupid.
Scott McLean:Like whoa, whoa, that's my baby, that's my boy right.
Evan Graver:Well, those are fighting words.
Scott McLean:Yeah, yeah, so that's my book. I just put I don't know a year of my life into this thing. So over the time I assumed that it was maybe like that at first. Correct me if I'm wrong, but over time you're like. I get it now.
Evan Graver:Yeah, I think when it first started I took it more to heart. I'd be like I kind of want to start reviewing.
Scott McLean:Because you wrote the greatest book in the world, right.
Evan Graver:Yeah, absolutely. I wrote 15 of them, I believe.
Scott McLean:Yeah, you should think that way.
Evan Graver:I'm not joking, you should think this is a damn good book. Right, Hollywood should be knocking down my door to make movies.
Scott McLean:No, that's the next step, but remember me when that happens. So while we're on this subject, um of the putting the books out, what is it about? What tell me something about self-publishing that people get wrong?
Evan Graver:is there a stigma to it? Oh boy, so. So here, lately I've been seeing ads on YouTube and Facebook and they're like start a side hustle, publish books on Amazon. It's not a side hustle, for some people it is. I mean, you could write a book and put it up there and never, ever worry about it. But if you want to make a go of it, writing is just it's the tip of the iceberg. You know everything else beneath the surface is, you know, it's advertising, it's emailing, it's I don't know. There's just so many things that you have to do to make the book. You know, if you just start with writing the story, I can write a phenomenal story, but then you've got to edit it and that takes hours. And that's one of the most frustrating things for me is people can write one-star criticism and I can read it and move on, but when I've got to read the editor's notes and I'm like you just didn't get the story, you didn't, oh, you're oh so my wife is always like oh, evan's editing again.
Scott McLean:Let's stay away from me are writers, authors, somewhere in their psyche a little masochistic I think so.
Evan Graver:I think you have to be because you, you're sitting in a room alone typing away and, and you know, you're putting yourself out there to just get somebody you're gonna get the first thing you don't like, you don't quit, you just keep going yeah, the, the first person to hammer you is your editor, and then it's your beta readers, and then it's you know the, the people who read your books and give you that one star, review it. But you, just you plug yourself with your cat of nine tails and you, you move on and you go.
Scott McLean:Okay, I'll just write a better one, do a little opus day, exactly um, do you know of of of authors, since you've been doing this for a while, that were one and done like uh-uh, no, that that was like I'm not taking that crap from the, I'm not doing this anymore um, I don't know about one and done.
Evan Graver:There's some authors that write and then they they may write a trilogy or whatever. They keep most, most, most authors once they get the bug, like if they're writing a series.
Scott McLean:I mean it's it's criticism aside, we damn whatever it's all you think about.
Evan Graver:You know, I'm driving down the car, or driving down the road in your car oh, wow, there's an idea for a story, let's write that down. You're walking at the beach going oh, look at that, that's an idea for a story. And then you're constantly thinking about how to improve the character or how to improve the storyline, or what the next book is going to be about. But I do know people who can't get out of the starting gate, if you know what I mean, and they're pancers. And inevitably pancers fall into this trap of.
Evan Graver:I got a bright idea for a story and the first 10,000 to 15,000 words just fall right out and it's like the easiest thing in the world. And then you go okay, where does the story go from here? And that's where a lot of panthers get lost. Um, and they, what they do is fall back and they start rewriting the same chapters or rewriting the same thing, or they move on to another story. So they got like 15 unfinished manuscripts laying around and yeah, I think it's. You know it's. You can be a pantser, I'm a pantser, most of the authors I know are pantsers. But the the key is just finding the motivation to push through and get it done it.
Scott McLean:It's like podcasting Exactly the average podcast, and we talked about this in the class. The average podcast lasts six episodes. That's the 15,000 words, right? Then they're like oh, this is a little bit of work, this is like, I have to do this, this and this. All right, well, maybe I'm not in the mood this week. And then it moves on. So there are tens of thousands of dead podcasts that don't go beyond six or less episodes, and you know the. The percentage is 10 episodes, 20 episodes. They start dropping off you find all those, but the average is six episodes. It's not what they thought it was. They it's all. It's always a glamorous idea to want to do this writing.
Scott McLean:In your case, yeah, but when you got to put in the work, and that's what I told you. When you're friends, you got to put in the work for this. If you want it, it can be a lot of fun, just like writing it can be a lot of fun. A lot of frustrations, you hit a lot of walls you know what we're?
Evan Graver:the conversation we're having right now is just like writing the book. It's the tip of the iceberg, right? It's everything else.
Scott McLean:It's the, it's the editing and the marketing and the all the other stuff that goes into it how do you stay motivated after 20 plus books, like is it just become routine or are you still like excited? Is it that first love type thing, or does that kind of wear off and you settle into your relationship just like a regular relationship and you're happy with your relationship? Is it kind of work that way and you're happy with your relationship?
Evan Graver:Does it kind of work that way? I think there's some burnout, like right now I'm kind of burnt out with it and that's probably why I started podcasting. I needed something else to do and that's a great.
Scott McLean:And they keep me excited about it Route to take, because you're still creating, you're still using your brain and you're going to be talking to other authors.
Evan Graver:So I tell you I I got burnt. You know I'm. You know I think at every, at the end of every book you're always feeling a little burnout, but then you start writing the next one, that once that idea hits, then it's like wildfire and you gotta got to get it onto the page. And I got to get it. I got to start this book and then everything else goes to the wayside for the next month and a half while I finish this book, or three months or however it's going to take me. But I mean so right now, kind of.
Evan Graver:You know, I got a book coming out. I got one that's sitting, that came back from the editor like a month ago and I haven't done anything with it. But I wanted to get the podcast rolling, work on my website, do you know? Work on my emails. So it's all the stuff that underneath the water, stuff that nobody sees, that it's like okay, I just need to take the time to do this. And so I'm not burnt out from writing a book, because once I get started, like I said, everything else is like I don't really feel like doing that stuff today, so let's just keep writing so when you are writing what's your, what's your daily process, daily routine, oh boy so I mean it's usually get up at 5, 5 o'clock I think, and it's just to start, put on a pot of coffee and look at the emails and then pull up the story and pull up the Word document and just start writing.
Evan Graver:I try to write 2,000 words a day, Seven days a week, usually five, because two days out of the week I'm working at the dive shop. That's right. But when I don't work there, yeah, usually I'm trying to put in some more words and sometimes I'll come home on like we only work half days on Sunday. So I'll come home on Sunday and if I'm really feeling ambitious I'll sit down and write. I don't really have a routine where I write in the morning and then afternoon is set aside for other stuff. Like I said, if I'm focused on writing a book, that's all I'm going to do during the day. Sometimes the 2,000 words, I can get that in really quickly and sometimes it's like pulling teeth.
Scott McLean:What book hit the hardest? What book was well, yeah, teeth. What book hit the hardest? What book was well, yeah, what book hit you the hardest?
Evan Graver:both, I guess writing it and emotionally and kind of was like oh, that was, oh, boy there um, there were some middle books like so dark fraud is like book nine or 10 in that Ryan Waller series, and so Ryan learned some Things about the past that he assumed were that he learned weren't weren't what he assumed, that he that that the ghost he was chasing is not you know not who he was chasing and then greg is dealing with some emotional issues and so they're back and forth with. You know, ryan feels this need to protect greg because greg's in a wheelchair and greg absolutely hates that and he wants to go off and do his own thing and be and be a partner, not so much somebody to be protected. So, all right, it's there.
Evan Graver:There's always in every book there's a part that's like, especially when I'm writing about that dynamic that's, it's tough to, it's tough to write and it's tough to. Greg's character is tough to write because it's basically me living through greg and I'm trying to put myself in his position. Um, and just well, I mean that's that's the hardest part is putting yourself out there and putting yourself on the page. And for me it's almost like part of it's a memoir, because there's stuff in there that happened to me and I just I tell people about it whether they believe it happened or not, that's, it's up to them villains.
Scott McLean:How do you keep the villains fresh, like without repeating, is it so? Is there one particular uh villain that that ryan wella is after, until you kind of jump around and what's? The thought process before uh uh, introducing them and then building them and keeping them going and all the weather books.
Evan Graver:Each of them have their own antagonist. You know their own bad guy that he's dealing with. And Phoenix the first five books deal with him trying to come to terms and trying to bring down a CAMO, and there's individual bad guys throughout every book that he has to deal with, but there's always an overarching bad guy in Phoenix, stuntman just I. I mean he had a hit a the opening the first book, and stuntman is his wife gets killed and so he's. He doesn't think the police believe, think that he's did it. So he sends us, sets out on a vendetta ride to find a real killer. But when I look at the bad guys, I mean there's a whole plethora of real-life bad guys out there that you can pick from Lots of books about them and TV shows. So let's just go out and pick and choose what you want and stick the traits in there.
Scott McLean:Like a Frankenstein villain. Yeah Right, how do you decide whether a character lives or dies?
Evan Graver:Part of it is. Will this push the main character forward? Will it propel them into a different situation, emotional state? And then you know, auxiliary bad guys die like peanuts.
Scott McLean:Like the red shirts in Star Trek. Exactly If there's a dude that got a red shirt on in that episode. He's probably going to die.
Evan Graver:Yep.
Scott McLean:There's several ways. Yeah, I episode he's probably going to die. Yep, there's several ways.
Evan Graver:Yeah, I mean the bad guys just always die, you know.
Scott McLean:You don't have one long-running bad guy like Sherlock Holmes had Moriarty.
Evan Graver:Well, in Phoenix he had a guy codenamed Dragonfly that he was chasing, who kind of ran a criminal enterprise a la black list. So if you've ever seen the tv show blacklist where james spader is, um runs this criminal enterprise and he worked for the fbi, yeah, um, that's kind of how I molded dragonfly. So he spends five books going after that and then okay, uh, you get all sorts of people in there.
Scott McLean:You get spies, you get combat divers, you get stomach. Do you seek any of these people out and interview them and or do you watch videos on them? How do you get a background to build on these characters, to have some sort of realism to them?
Evan Graver:it's kind of touched on a question I asked earlier, but uh, you go out and talk to them, um, you seek them out. Yeah, you know, especially um, like eod guys, when I wanted to know about eod, um, I mean, they'll be happy to sit down and tell you all kinds of stories that what they won't tell you is the stuff they actually did. They won't tell you about you know which wire to cut on a bouncing body or you know whatever, but and they won't tell you about the really bad stuff that they saw. But they'll tell you, like how to make a cell phone, really what you're looking for is the technical aspect of it.
Scott McLean:You create all that other stuff.
Evan Graver:Yeah, you're looking for the technical aspect, um, and then um, there's the stuntman. I mean there's just so much stuff out there about on YouTube and other places that have you know the background, how to make a stunt or how to you know how this process happens.
Scott McLean:I think like how writers back in the day, who didn't have the Internet and didn't have any of this, were such brilliant writers. And you look at them today and you're like that dude was, that lady was spot on. Like the work that must have went into that to get that. Like my old girlfriend's dad this was 81. There was no internet, there was nothing he like really researched and put together each character.
Evan Graver:Yeah, there's and Stuntman. He was uh in one of the stuntman books. He's um that they they're talking about. Uh, they're on set and they need a firearms expert and there's some stuff on the internet about it but I ended up calling california and talking to a guy who owns a prop firearm business and I mean he just gave me the lowdown. He wasn't shy, it was really cool. I'm like hey, I'm writing this book, he's got nothing to hide. I mean, he just broke it down. It was really cool.
Scott McLean:Yeah.
Evan Graver:And it happened about the same time that the incident on Rust happened.
Scott McLean:Yep time that, uh, that the incident on rust happened where yep um so we're, and so he had a lot to say about that, which I don't know. I'll save that for later. Yeah, that's another conversation if someone's never read your books, where the obvious answer is from the beginning yeah. But where? Where do you say they pick up right at the beginning, the first book, first series, or?
Evan Graver:um, I, you know, I'll tell you. You know, if you pick up dark water and read it, it's that's the first, very first book that I published and it's going to read differently than the 15th book in the series, because I changed as a writer through this evolution. But start there and John Phoenix comes in in book 15 in the Weller series and they don't get along at all. And then Phoenix picks up with some character carryover from the Weller series and then Stuntman's just out in California all on his own. So I mean, grab a series and dig in. You don't have to. I mean, I kind of wrote each book individually so if you don't start at the beginning, you're not missing anything. Just pick up a book and start reading. That's the key.
Scott McLean:Okay, like podcasting. I have one podcast called milk crates and turntables and I just finished episode 180 and I do a live stream every thursday night and then it turns into a podcast and I don't recommend listening to episode one because the difference between episode one and episode 180 is amazingly like, like it's like oh yeah, that's, that's like that high school picture yeah don't, don't, don't, look at that that's, that's not I mean it's a good episode, they're all informative, but it's just, they're very different, they're not polished, they don't have a flow, like they have somewhat of a flow.
Scott McLean:So I suppose, like you just said, with your books and you're getting into podcasting now, so you will do a lot of podcasts, yeah, and you will look back at this episode and whatever the first real interview is and you're gonna go oh, wow, that's you see, the improvement now I hear the improvement, right, yeah that's like you just said with writing. Like the first book is different than the 20th book I think just got better, right?
Evan Graver:yeah, I think you know like dark water and I'll be honest with you, there's there's. This lady reviewed my book and she said there's a chapter in there in which nothing happens. And I'm like, well, you know, I mean she's kind of right, I was trying to world build and, and you know, nothing really happens till the very last sentence of the chapter.
Scott McLean:But she kept reading it.
Evan Graver:But she read the whole. Thing.
Scott McLean:That's it.
Evan Graver:That's it, and so I think I didn't really hit my stride in that series until Dark Drone. I can't remember the number of it, but Dark Drone was like. I finally felt like I hit what a thriller should be like how it's written, how it's. You know the plot, I mean, that's where I thought I came into my own but so all right.
Scott McLean:Well, what's the one thing you want people to feel after they read one of your books?
Evan Graver:I gotta read the next one to find out what happens. Okay, so I I just want them to relate to the characters, I want them to think about, I want the book to stick with them and and for them to think. I wonder what ryan's up to. Is he happy on his sailboat with his wife and kid, or is he looking for a mission?
Evan Graver:that's a connection to the character yeah so, but I just, you know, I think people need that connection and that's the connection I want to bring and I just hope they, you know, it connects with them enough that they pick up the next book. There you go.
Scott McLean:Well, that's my 20 questions. My friend, I think there was actually like 23.
Evan Graver:Hey.
Scott McLean:This is your first real episode of your podcast.
Evan Graver:Yes, it is.
Scott McLean:Thank you. I was very honored that you asked me to help you do your first episode and find out about what you're doing. And now, from this point on, the show is yours and is it this format right? You're going to sit down with an author and pick their brain, like I just picked your brain about their processes, and all right.
Evan Graver:Absolutely.
Scott McLean:Good. You know I did say I have to be brutally honest here. We did have a conversation, you and I recently, where I said authors, I think, are different kinds of people. They're just a different kind of people. In a good way In a do not. I don't want you getting inundated with. What is that supposed to mean?
Evan Graver:In a good way.
Scott McLean:Your brain works differently.
Evan Graver:I tell everybody that if we have a conversation, something you say may or may not end up in a book, so there you go.
Scott McLean:Well, I'd like to be in one of those books. That would be pretty cool. I don't see how people could not want that. Well, evan, I'm going to hand it over to you now. This is your first episode, your show.
Evan Graver:I'm going to hand it back to you and it's all yours I just want to say thank you everybody for listening and thank you for scott for hammering with me with some questions and helping me out with this whole journey, and he's teaching me a lot of stuff and I hope, hope, he keeps teaching me more so I can help bring more podcasts to the world. Our next guest is going to be Nick Sullivan. He's an author, actor and audio book producer and we look forward to seeing you there, thank you.
